Currently HB's website lists 7 new E/V/P lenses with focal length branding marked on the barrel (excluding the 45p), and 10 without focal length branding legacy lenses (including the 45p).
Apart from the 90, understand new models are not direct duplicates in focal lengths, but for those within comparable focal lengths, is there a new lens that's definitively better than the older design?
In other words, if you were the sole decision maker of the lens product line, which of the legacy lenses would you discontinue on the basis that the new model definitively performs better?
It depends on what you mean by better...
Distortion and vignetting are worse on the new designed lenses, and corrected in post. It seems they all have that same more nervous bokeh than the legacy lenses, according to the images I can see (I have no new lens). But AF, weight, sharpness in the center, maximum aperture, focus by wire, functionality are better with the new design.
The legacy lenses are very good and optically hard to beat, but sometimes very difficult to operate. Slow AF (although my 65 is rather quick), heavy, focus by wire not very handy. The rendering is smoother in out of focus area and I like it more.
In fact, even the 45P already has that different rendering as some people reported on this forum. But nobody shared a direct comparison. The closest was a comparison between the XCD 80 and the 90V and with a limited scenario on cropped images or resized. Some shots with the legacy lenses won't display where they shine, and some shots with the new ones will be perfectly fine to my eyes, I should say beautiful! But when that special scenario happens, there is something that I can only describe by a more than real effect with some legacy lenses.
I should add that even seeing Andrew Camera's test of legacy lenses, I thought the 90/3.2 was a weak lens compared to other like the 65 or the 80, but I've recently seen a review with incredible images (and MTF charts show it's a greaaaat lens). Like I already said, with some legacy lenses, even boring shots can be stunning because of how it renders.
Soon, I will be able to compare the images produced by the new 80E, with those I've taken, to see if the same is true with E prime lenses. But no direct comparison again, which limits my understanding of the lens rendering.
No reviewer, to my knowledge, has compared the 90V and the 90 3.2, nor the 45P with the 45 3.5.
To conclude, I should admit that the new lenses produce beautiful images and are easier to work with, but until now, I'm not convinced their optical quality is superior to legacy lenses, although generally sharper in the center. Corners are sacrificed, and distortion and vignetting are high, which does not represent optical perfection to my mind. Is that a problem in real world? I think you don't know if you don't learn to see it (and I don't pretend to see it all, but I can see what is unpleasant to my eyes with the newer lenses). Now I have to see what an E prime lens looks like...
Also, it seems Hasselblad has made a choice not to work with Nittoh anymore, and decided to work with Panasonic to produce the new lenses. So, they need to replace the legacy lenses and they will.
PS: every system/lens is a compromise.
Quote from: niviblad on February 13, 2025, 10:03:03 AMNo reviewer, to my knowledge, has compared the 90V and the 90 3.2, nor the 45P with the 45 3.5.
To conclude, I should admit that the new lenses produce beautiful images and are easier to work with, but until now, I'm not convinced their optical quality is superior to legacy lenses, although generally sharper in the center. Corners are sacrificed, and distortion and vignetting are high, which does not represent optical perfection to my mind. Is that a problem in real world? I think you don't know if you don't learn to see it (and I don't pretend to see it all, but I can see what is unpleasant to my eyes with the newer lenses). Now I have to see what an E prime lens looks like...
Also, it seems Hasselblad has made a choice not to work with Nittoh anymore, and decided to work with Panasonic to produce the new lenses. So, they need to replace the legacy lenses and they will.
PS: every system/lens is a compromise.
Given landscapes are the key focus, new lenses corner compromises aren't favorable trade offs for the lighter weight and faster AF. Actually some lenses are within several grams, for example, the 90mm's. Perhaps the new wide zoom might show promise, since it's a "E" lens, but your point of not seeing any direct comparisons after such a long time is puzzling.
Quote from: niviblad on February 13, 2025, 10:03:03 AMSoon, I will be able to compare the images produced by the new 80E, with those I've taken, to see if the same is true with E prime lenses.
Is 80E the next lens to be announced?
The digital correction of light fall off leads to reduction of the dynamic range by the degree of correction necessary. That means more noise in the shadows at the periphery compared to the center, not a good thing for landscape or architectural, product, closeup, reproduction photography. I don't understand why all lens manufacturer pretend that digital correction is like a free lunch.
I got the 28P in spite of knowing its issue because I think having a not prefect lens with me is better than a superior lens I leave at home because of its bulk and weight.
Quote from: o2mpx on February 13, 2025, 06:23:44 PMQuote from: niviblad on February 13, 2025, 10:03:03 AMNo reviewer, to my knowledge, has compared the 90V and the 90 3.2, nor the 45P with the 45 3.5.
To conclude, I should admit that the new lenses produce beautiful images and are easier to work with, but until now, I'm not convinced their optical quality is superior to legacy lenses, although generally sharper in the center. Corners are sacrificed, and distortion and vignetting are high, which does not represent optical perfection to my mind. Is that a problem in real world? I think you don't know if you don't learn to see it (and I don't pretend to see it all, but I can see what is unpleasant to my eyes with the newer lenses). Now I have to see what an E prime lens looks like...
Also, it seems Hasselblad has made a choice not to work with Nittoh anymore, and decided to work with Panasonic to produce the new lenses. So, they need to replace the legacy lenses and they will.
PS: every system/lens is a compromise.
Given landscapes are the key focus, new lenses corner compromises aren't favorable trade offs for the lighter weight and faster AF. Actually some lenses are within several grams, for example, the 90mm's. Perhaps the new wide zoom might show promise, since it's a "E" lens, but your point of not seeing any direct comparisons after such a long time is puzzling.
I'm surely a bit unfair towards the new lenses. The 90V is a very very good lens, and not that bad in the corners stopped down a little bit (the vignetting is even more limited than the first 90 stopped down). It's hard to say it's better or worse than the first one... It's different in terms of optical quality and certainly rendering, but both are high quality. It's probably better in terms of handling.
I've found an example to show the difference of rendering, although the 90V is compared to the 80: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CFHmidJOF8&t=390s
I must admit they are very close in this setup, but you'll see the 90V's bokeh is more defined, with a bit more contrast. That's also what produces, I think, the kind of details I don't like where you see even more doubling lines in slightly out of focus areas: https://cdn.hasselblad.com/f/77891/11656x8742/20389379de/julia-trotti-x2d-xcd90v-1.jpg
I've never seen that kind of doubling lines (hair) in the portraits I've shot wide open nor stopped down a bit with the legacy lenses. When I could guess it exists, the transition is smoother enough not to bother me.
Some examples of that "more than real" effect which leave me stunned:
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Job_9026-Pano.jpg
A stunning boring shot...:
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Job_7520.jpg
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Job_7548.jpg
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Job_7546.jpg
I'll share mine soon...
Quote from: niviblad on February 16, 2025, 02:38:10 AMSome examples of that "more than real" effect which leave me stunned:
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Job_9026-Pano.jpg
A stunning boring shot...:
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Job_7520.jpg
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Job_7548.jpg
https://www.dearsusan.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Job_7546.jpg
I'll share mine soon...
I just bought the 135 Macro largely on the basis of that review, and bought an 8 year old Olympus Pen F with a pancake wide angle, on the same day. A garage full of tools serves better and more completely than a garage half full of tools. I have some of the V lenses, but the older lenses are my favorites for the reasons you have already given. There are real trade offs, no free lunch.
I dont know...I had a x2d with 30,45,90 first, later added 65 and 80.
When the new lenses appeared I got the 28/38/55 and used those lenses because I really liked the smaller size and weight.
Frienkly if I would mind weight and size at all I would still use the S system because I prefer the lens rendering over most xcd lenses, and I love IBIS for handhold shooting.
The 80/1.9 and maybe the 65 has been the lens which compares to those S lenses. But the 80 was more often at home because of its weight.
One day I decided to sell xcd-system and stay with Leica SL3 for more flexibility and to reduce my gear.
But after 6 months I missed the x2d (specially the colors and how the images come out of the camera).
I now use a 3 lens kit, 2 new lenses (20-35 and 75) and one old (45/3.5) as something in between for a small price.
I am quite happy with this kit. I don't miss the 21 or 30, I love the flexibility of the 20-35 and I like the IQ.
I am also happy with the 75 and its light weight and slightly longer focal length compared to the 65.
I am not doing pixel peeping.
BY the way...a x-body with a shutter in the body would be a dream to be able to use 3rd party lenses without rolling shutter effect. Or a sensor with fast readout.
I switched from old to new lenses. At first I did have some surprises in the margins but with 38 and 55 that appears to be some field curvature and I now have no issues getting c2c sharp at F11. Additionally the 55 is a particularly lovely lens for informal family stuff. The new 90 and 25 are very very sharp, the 90 especially so and has a lovely organic rendering which I think is quite analogue.
To my eyes the optical quality is as good as the older series but the haptics are so much better with the clutch MF, the weight loss and consistent filter size being significant gains. I swapped the 28 out for the 25 because of the haptics with a little bit of pain because of the size & weight gain - personally I think they should have stuck to F4 with it.
Pretty into the V glass. 25, 38, 55, and 90mm. Consistent f/2.5 is nice and overall optical performance is very good on a demanding sensor. Low CA. Distortion and vignette are the main talking points, but vignette less so. Distortion I think is within a reasonable amount given the tighter spec design. Really enjoy the general function of the lenses in terms of the manual focus ring. Very good work there.
I will likely be alone in saying I wouldn't mind slightly larger lenses at f/2, but not worth fighting about. Also interesting that different shutter designs yield different audible sounds, but not an issue in practice.
I feel we are lacking on the V on the macro and longer focal length front, I'd like to see something there that is "new". Probably a short tele and a longer one solve this overall. It will be hard to one up the older 120 and 135 designs, but I would hope something slides into that space.
P series is nice for compact setups, though slower. I'm mainly shoot and travel with my V series.
I'd like the af-d button to work in MF, it just when set in camera but with the lens ring too.
I use the 2.5/38V and 3.4/75p for my X2D-100c. I also use other HCD/HC lenses with the XH adapter. You don't need a lens with a maximum aperture of f/2.5 for landscape photography. :)
In this respect, I would be delighted if Hasselblad were to develop a portable lens such as a 4...4,8/21p (above the 20p...24p range) to complement the 2.5/25V. :D
The xcd 4/21mm is about the same size as the 1.9/80mm, but significantly lighter.
I prefer the design of the newer lenses.
The optical results are more than sufficient for my needs: nobody will ever blow my images up to the size of a billboard and then pixel peep whilst standing 3 feet away!
None of them have quite the pure neutrality that my favourite lens of all time, the Leica M35 Apo Summicron did but overall the X2D system provides a better blend of IQ and usability for me - and much nicer colours than my M11 did.
A modern incarnation of the 45 in P or V would be great.
When the 28P was released I immediately purchased. I already owned the 30 and it is a superb lens. I spent the next 2 weeks shooting both lenses on a tripod at each aperture for as detailed comparison as possible at higher magnification to see the differences. My conclusion that there were as close as any lenses I'd ever compared. In about 70% of cases despite being very small the 28P have a very slight edge in performance. I sold the 30 mostly for the reasons of size and weight with the 28P being so much smaller and lighter. Both superb lenses. All files processed using Phocus.
Quote from: dmecham on May 04, 2025, 11:50:27 PMWhen the 28P was released I immediately purchased. I already owned the 30 and it is a superb lens. I spent the next 2 weeks shooting both lenses on a tripod at each aperture for as detailed comparison as possible at higher magnification to see the differences. My conclusion that there were as close as any lenses I'd ever compared. In about 70% of cases despite being very small the 28P have a very slight edge in performance. I sold the 30 mostly for the reasons of size and weight with the 28P being so much smaller and lighter. Both superb lenses. All files processed using Phocus.
Could you please share some of these shots taken with the 28 and the 30 please?
I am very tempted by the 28P, someday, and if you say it beats the 30, that's something I'd like to see...
Unfortunately this site is very difficult to upload an image. I'm still trying to figure it out. The difference is only visible at 100% or higher. The are very close in performance but I made my choice because the 28P is much smaller and lighter, near silent shutter and much lower cost. If I can figure out to upload images on this site I will.
To upload images click the Reply button, not the Quick Reply, and you'll see a section below the text input box where it says "Click or drag files here ..."
Note: using an iPhone I have to have it in Landscape orientation not portrait to see the Reply button
You can reply with the button user actions too instead of turning the phone in landscape mode.
Quote from: dmecham on May 14, 2025, 07:11:46 AMUnfortunately this site is very difficult to upload an image. I'm still trying to figure it out. The difference is only visible at 100% or higher. The are very close in performance but I made my choice because the 28P is much smaller and lighter, near silent shutter and much lower cost. If I can figure out to upload images on this site I will.
That's precisely why I'm considering the 28P. I need a wide angle lens and if the quality of the 28P is good enough, even compared to the 30, clearly the size of the lens will make me pick it over the other. I'd like to see if the corners at F8 are close to the 30.
Thanks for the guidance to upload pics. Overall shot is with 28P f8. As can be seen using Phocus 2 for RAW conversion the corners of the 28P appear fine. The details are from this image comparing both lenses at f8. Like I had mentioned before the IQ of both lenses is outstanding. The advantage the 28P provides is size, weight, cost and near silent shutter compared to the 30.
Here the overall shots with the 30 and 28P f8.
Thank you for sharing your comparison!
I've superimposed the 100% crops in Photoshop and details are slightly crispier on the 30: overall contrast and microcontrast are higher on the 30. It's also obvious to my eyes in the lightbulbs. Still, the 28 seems impressive and might be good enough...
On the overall images, corners appear a bit more detailed on the 28... That could be tied to contrast in the shadows, I don't know. It seems strange to me.
Are there other owners of the 28 and the 30 who could give their opinion please?
30mm Datasheet (https://cdn.hasselblad.com/datasheets/xcd-lenses/XCD30-Datasheet-en.pdf)
28mm Datasheet (https://cdn.hasselblad.com/f/77891/x/13985f7b6e/xcd28p-datasheet-en.pdf)
The 28P is lighter, focuses better, is not as loud when the shutter is released and has an attractive price.
However, optically it cannot keep up with the 30mm XCD lens.
Hasselblad defines the 28P for street photography. It is good for that.
For landscape photography, however, the 30mm is better.
Quote from: niviblad on May 14, 2025, 06:38:43 PMYou can reply with the button user actions too instead of turning the phone in landscape mode.
I learned something new! Thank you
Ofcourse keep in mind I made the highlight and shadow adjustments in Phocus so there may be some small contrast differences that are user controlled... Also consider the files I sent would be like looking at a 40x50 inch print. IQ differences just are not big enough.
In my situation the largest print I ever make is 30x40 inches. If I can't see the difference in a print that large it doesn't really matter. I made 30x40 inch prints from 4x5 inch film for many years and my Hasselblad X1Dii IQ is superior to drum scanning 4x5 film. All I need. And the size and weight difference has made a joy to shoot the 28P. Not to mention saving quite a bit of money. Both fine lenses.
Quote from: jhasselblad on May 15, 2025, 01:01:18 AM30mm Datasheet (https://cdn.hasselblad.com/datasheets/xcd-lenses/XCD30-Datasheet-en.pdf)
28mm Datasheet (https://cdn.hasselblad.com/f/77891/x/13985f7b6e/xcd28p-datasheet-en.pdf)
The 28P is lighter, focuses better, is not as loud when the shutter is released and has an attractive price.
However, optically it cannot keep up with the 30mm XCD lens.
Hasselblad defines the 28P for street photography. It is good for that.
For landscape photography, however, the 30mm is better.
Be sure I always compare MTF charts between close lenses!
That's precisely why I was surprised some would find the 28P better than the 30.
But as I read landscape photographers also used it for that, I wonder if they find the limitations significant or not.
I think the 28P is perfectly fine for landscape photography but you need to be careful with the depth of field placement. In my experience, the 28P (at least my particular lens) has quite noticeable focus shift when you stop down to F8 or beyond (the point of focus shifts backwards when the lens aperture is closed down for the purposes of taking the photo). I have got into the habit of ensuring that the point I focus on is closer to me than where I want it to appear in the actual photograph. I imagine most users wouldn't notice but I'm quite fussy about things like this.
Anyway, the 28P works well for a reasonable (in Hasselblad terms) price. I briefly owned the 30 f/3.2 and I suspect it has the edge over the 28P but it is significantly bulkier and heavier.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53891953147_98ef5b0cbe_h.jpg)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2q7fm6Z) by I Watts (https://www.flickr.com/photos/oldvinylcouk/), on Flickr
I'm quite surprised you're seeing a focus shift. Something I've never seen with any of my Hassleblad XCD lenses. As I test each lens I test all apertures. I have 28P, 38V, 45P, 65 and 75P. I think I'd look further into this and contact Hasselblad.
Quote from: dmecham on May 15, 2025, 09:55:42 PMI'm quite surprised you're seeing a focus shift. I think I'd look further into this and contact Hasselblad.
I considered doing so but, frankly, I can't really be bothered. Especially when Matt on the GetDPI forum confirmed that his did the same thing <https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/hasselblad-xcd-28p-focus-shift.76065/>. Life is too short sometimes and it is easy enough to compensate for it.
Hasselblad would most likely send you a new one if it was just recently purchased.
Quote from: dmecham on May 16, 2025, 03:07:33 AMHasselblad would most likely send you a new one if it was just recently purchased.
I bought it in April 2024. Besides, I mostly use my 45P as I prefer a more moderate wide angle.
I do wish Hasselblad would make a 35P but that's another story. (I know there is the 38V and it's not big or heavy but I'd be happier with F4, smaller and less costly).
I love my 45P and I do love the 38V but it was more expensive. The 38V may be the lens I use most for it's IQ and angle of view. It is one of the lightest lenses in the series as well. With a well placed focus point my DOF at f 5.6 is about 20ft to infinity.
Apparently, focus shift is a flaw inherent to the design of a lens, so, I believe every single 28P suffers from that flaw. Lloyd Chambers, who is very harsh with the 28P, mentions the focus shift too.
I've read on another forum someone saying it was a spherical aberration. Interestingly, and we can go back to the subject, he also said some older lenses left some spherical aberrations uncorrected so that the bokeh produced be smoother. Then, he added that nowadays, there are other ways to smooth the bokeh. I don't know who he is and how he knows that, but that's interesting considering the sometimes harsher double lines produced by new lens series, the 75P being the worst example I've seen. Also, the 75P MTF charts are impressive, and it seems to be as sharp as the 90V in the center. Wouldn't that double lines be a byproduct of that superior characteristics? These lenses have more aspherical elements and extra low dispersion elements than the older. Only the 21, the 30, and the 35-75 have one aspherical element. And the 45P.
I know the test provided by Steve shows the 80 and the 90V are close in a comparable scenario. But this test doesn't display the worst double lines I've seen with the new lenses either, not comparable to the sample I've taken from Hasselblad website. I've looked hundreds of times at my shots and I've never seen bad double lines in hair (sometimes we can guess it exists, just like in Steve test, but it's smooth enough not to be distracting). But I should mention that I've seen double lines or ghosts in the background of some shots with the 65. I'll provide examples.
Shot at F5.6 with the 65. It's not as distracting as what I've showed elsewhere in newer lenses, but distracting enough to make me see it. Never seen anything like that with the 80 nor the 120, but I've used them far less, and probably never in the same scenario.
And you can see that in the Ray Cheung photography I shared in the 80 thread, the 75P doesn't produce the kind of double lines I hate, the effect is in fact lovely in this scenario. I believe it doesn't happen when focusing at close distance. It's also where the bokeh is maximized...
An interesting read about aspherical elements and the way Panasonic optimised their design, and probably the reason why Leica and Hasselblad now work with Panasonic...
Fun fact, I've learnt what kind of bokeh I hate and sometimes encounter with Hasselblad lenses, old and new, and I'm not alone: Nisen bokeh... It's unclear to me whether a lens able to produce perfectly creamy bokeh could also, in some circumstances, produce nisen bokeh. I believe it's possible as the 65 can do that. Again, close focusing with it at 2.8, I doubt I'll ever see Nisen bokeh... But stopped down or at some distance, maybe more...
https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/05/02/the-end-of-onion-ring-bokeh-panasonic-beats-the-curse-of-aspheric-lenses (https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/05/02/the-end-of-onion-ring-bokeh-panasonic-beats-the-curse-of-aspheric-lenses)