Electronic shutter

[marcwilson]

Afternoon all.
I'm looking at some (smallish) non Hasselblad lenses for the X1dII and wanted to get anyone's experience  working handheld whist using the electronic shutter.
On tripod it's not an issue of course but handheld at 30th of a second etc has the rolling shutter become an issue at all?
Thanks.

[davidjiang]

with IBIS and hold the camera without any move at least 1-2 secs after the shot is done (when the back screen or EVF show the scene again), otherwise rolling shutter will become an big issue even with 1/1000s shutter speed.

[MGrayson]

Outdoors, it isn't as problem for stationary subjects. Indoors (stripes) or action (rolling shutter) are a problem. I don't think twice about handholding the Mamiya 645 50mm shift lens, their 200/2.8 APO, or their 300/5.6 ULD. Ditto the Pentax 645's 35mm, 75mm, or 150mm lenses. IBIS is mandatory, and allowing time for the scan - which is unrelated to shutter speed!

Matt

[Georg Kovalcik]

... without any move at least 1-2 secs after the shot is done ...

Well, with a 1/30 sec. sensor read out time it would be those 1/30 sec. not 1-2 sec. 1/30 is like a Leica from the 30ties of the last century.

[SrMi]

The readout time for the 100MP sensor is 1/6 sec in 14-bit and 1/3 sec in 16-bit mode.
It is recommended to use 14-bit mode when shooting handheld with electronic shutter.
The rolling shutter effect (distortion) does not depend on the selected shutter speed.
With static scenes, distortions are more visible with longer lenses, but IBIS helps to reduce distortions.

Since the readout is complete within 1/6 sec (14-bits), holding the camera steady much longer than the shutter speed is unnecessary. 1/2 second should be enough.

[SrMi]

... without any move at least 1-2 secs after the shot is done ...

Well, with a 1/30 sec. sensor read out time it would be those 1/30 sec. not 1-2 sec. 1/30 is like a Leica from the 30ties of the last century.

The best case readout speed is 1/6 second, not 1/30.

[etn]

Unfortunately, even if you use a crop mode such as 24x36, the camera needs to reads the entire sensor and therefore the 1/6s read out time is not reduced. This is a limitation of the sensor, there is little Hasselblad can do about it. The IMX461 flyer mentions subsampling modes, which are every 3rd, 5th, 7th or 15th row of the sensor, but over the entire sensor area.

However the same flyer mentions 11-bits and 12-bits readout modes. I am speculating (I might be wrong) that those could reduce the read-out time even further.


 

[SrMi]

Unfortunately, even if you use a crop mode such as 24x36, the camera needs to reads the entire sensor and therefore the 1/6s read out time is not reduced. This is a limitation of the sensor, there is little Hasselblad can do about it. The IMX461 flyer mentions subsampling modes, which are every 3rd, 5th, 7th or 15th row of the sensor, but over the entire sensor area.

However the same flyer mentions 11-bits and 12-bits readout modes. I am speculating (I might be wrong) that those could reduce the read-out time even further.


 

Actually, the time to read out just the cropped area is shorter (time starting at first line of the cropped area to the time to read the last line of the cropped area).
What probably matters more is the time to read a single line, and that time remains unchanged for a given bit width.

[etn]

Actually, the time to read out just the cropped area is shorter (time starting at first line of the cropped area to the time to read the last line of the cropped area).
What probably matters more is the time to read a single line, and that time remains unchanged for a given bit width.

Absolutely. If I understand the IMX461 documentation correctly, the sensor is not capable of starting the readout at a certain line. It always start at line 1, but can "skip" some lines to speed up the process. This is also what is used on video modes (with cameras having this feature.)

From an electronics point of view, 2 things take time:
1) the analog-to-digital conversion: in a general way, the more precision you want (in other words, more bits), the longer the conversion will take. Note that this also depends on how the converter is designed, several technologies exist to optimize parameters such as accuracy, conversion speed, or others.
2) the data transfer itself: with a given data bus capability (set by design), more bits = more time.

[MGrayson]

Honestly, it's really not a problem. 

[marcwilson]

Thanks all for these answers.

So bottom line is with electronic shutter, handheld you might have problems, but on a tripod outdoors, no issues whatsoever.
On a tripod, indoors, with flash, potentially 1 or 2 second exposure...still no issues or is this where 'stripes' might come in...I would be using electronic shutter with a pentax 645 lens on  shift adaptor.

Marc

[MGrayson]

Thanks all for these answers.

So bottom line is with electronic shutter, handheld you might have problems, but on a tripod outdoors, no issues whatsoever.
On a tripod, indoors, with flash, potentially 1 or 2 second exposure...still no issues or is this where 'stripes' might come in...I would be using electronic shutter with a pentax 645 lens on  shift adaptor.

Marc

Indoors, stripes appear because the lights generally flicker at the AC frequency (60Hz or so). Hand held, with IBIS, it's really not a problem.

[etn]

Honestly, it's really not a problem. 

Excellent picture!

[marcwilson]

Thanks all for these answers.

So bottom line is with electronic shutter, handheld you might have problems, but on a tripod outdoors, no issues whatsoever.
On a tripod, indoors, with flash, potentially 1 or 2 second exposure...still no issues or is this where 'stripes' might come in...I would be using electronic shutter with a pentax 645 lens on  shift adaptor.

Marc

Indoors, stripes appear because the lights generally flicker at the AC frequency (60Hz or so). Hand held, with IBIS, it's really not a problem.

Indoors it is only natural light and my flash light so I assume the stripes comes from 'house' lights only, not flash unit. I'm using 1dxII so no IBIS.

[MGrayson]

Thanks all for these answers.

So bottom line is with electronic shutter, handheld you might have problems, but on a tripod outdoors, no issues whatsoever.
On a tripod, indoors, with flash, potentially 1 or 2 second exposure...still no issues or is this where 'stripes' might come in...I would be using electronic shutter with a pentax 645 lens on  shift adaptor.

Marc

Indoors, stripes appear because the lights generally flicker at the AC frequency (60Hz or so). Hand held, with IBIS, it's really not a problem.

Indoors it is only natural light and my flash light so I assume the stripes comes from 'house' lights only, not flash unit. I'm using 1dxII so no IBIS.

Without IBIS, straight lines can get wavy.

Oddly, I *have* a Canon 1dxII from 2005, so it took me a second...