HEIC files from X2d

[bcvthul]

Maybe this gives some information about HEIC and HEIF:

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/file-types/image/raster/heic-file.html

[boojum]

Regardles of what the menu system indicates and what the upgrade notes say, the files are saved with the "HEIC" extension.

[fcarucci]

I just checked Phocus 3.7.5 and it does not recognize an HEIC file format.  Seems someone in Gothenburg dropped the ball. Why create a file your software cannot edit?

Because it is not meant to be edited. You *can* edit it, but the fact you can doesn't mean you should.

[Iskander]

Regardles of what the menu system indicates and what the upgrade notes say, the files are saved with the "HEIC" extension.

I haven't tried it myself, but if so, it's very embarrassing for a reputable company like Hasselblad to make these erroneous and misleading statements in the documentation and even in the camera menu.

[MGrayson]

Regardles of what the menu system indicates and what the upgrade notes say, the files are saved with the "HEIC" extension.

I haven't tried it myself, but if so, it's very embarrassing for a reputable company like Hasselblad to make these erroneous and misleading statements in the documentation and even in the camera menu.

HEIC files are an example of the HEIF standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format

Matt

[etn]

So HEIF is the format and HEIC the file type. Thanks, I learned something

[Iskander]

I think the discussion has clarified a few things. Thanks to everyone.

[boojum]

I wrote HB support about Phocus not recognizing the HEIC files.  Their response was that they had forwarded my email to R&D in Gothenburg.  I'd hope that Gothenburg already knows.  ;o)

As for editing, this is very important to me.  If the HEIC has greater bit-depth, 10 vs 8 in JPG, and can be edited with undo via edits being carried in a sidecar and the original file untouched I'd say this is progress. And the info on the format says it is a better image than JPG.

And before anyone gets all huffy and puffy over JPG and HEIC, I print nothing at home.  If I do RAW it must be exported as an 8 bit JPG so where is the advantage of RAW?  The SOOC images of the X2D are excellent requiring little or no enhancement.  I am just an amateur hack not a paid commercial photographer.  And images sent off to commercial houses for printing are sent as JPG's.  I hope to see these places accept HEIC soon.  It has been around for a long while now.  So welcome to 2023, let's use the tools we have.  Cheers

[mar-ko]

I wrote HB support about Phocus not recognizing the HEIC files.  Their response was that they had forwarded my email to R&D in Gothenburg.  I'd hope that Gothenburg already knows.  ;o)

For me, Phocus is a RAW converter.
If you want to edit your photos to get the best quality (that's why you're using Hasselblad, right?), you will shoot RAW.
You can use any Photohop/Affinity/Gimp/... you like to edit JPG or HEIC files. No need to use Phocus for that.
I hope Hasselblad will not allocate any resources to give Phocus HEIC-editing features.

[boojum]

I wrote HB support about Phocus not recognizing the HEIC files.  Their response was that they had forwarded my email to R&D in Gothenburg.  I'd hope that Gothenburg already knows.  ;o)

For me, Phocus is a RAW converter.
If you want to edit your photos to get the best quality (that's why you're using Hasselblad, right?), you will shoot RAW.
You can use any Photohop/Affinity/Gimp/... you like to edit JPG or HEIC files. No need to use Phocus for that.
I hope Hasselblad will not allocate any resources to give Phocus HEIC-editing features.

Thank you for sharing what works for you.

Phocus is tuned to the X2D.  That gives it a leg up on other editors.  HEIC allows more editing than JPG, is non-destructive and has greater bit depth.  It is progress. 

[MGrayson]

I wrote HB support about Phocus not recognizing the HEIC files.  Their response was that they had forwarded my email to R&D in Gothenburg.  I'd hope that Gothenburg already knows.  ;o)

For me, Phocus is a RAW converter.
If you want to edit your photos to get the best quality (that's why you're using Hasselblad, right?), you will shoot RAW.
You can use any Photohop/Affinity/Gimp/... you like to edit JPG or HEIC files. No need to use Phocus for that.
I hope Hasselblad will not allocate any resources to give Phocus HEIC-editing features.

Thank you for sharing what works for you.

Phocus is tuned to the X2D.  That gives it a leg up on other editors.  HEIC allows more editing than JPG, is non-destructive and has greater bit depth.  It is progress.

RAW provides even greater bit depth and better non-destructive editing - including, perhaps most importantly, lens corrections for each XCD or HC lens used on the X2D.

I promise we won't say "we told you so" if you try it. Well, I won't say it. But I urge everyone to support you here. In 2005, I took my first salable photo. I messed up the camera settings that day and took it only as JPEG. It's a 16MP CCD image, so it's high quality, but I curse myself every time I try to edit or sharpen it that I have only a JPEG to work with.

Ok, I'll shut up about it. Do as you wish.

Matt

[boojum]

I wrote HB support about Phocus not recognizing the HEIC files.  Their response was that they had forwarded my email to R&D in Gothenburg.  I'd hope that Gothenburg already knows.  ;o)

For me, Phocus is a RAW converter.
If you want to edit your photos to get the best quality (that's why you're using Hasselblad, right?), you will shoot RAW.
You can use any Photohop/Affinity/Gimp/... you like to edit JPG or HEIC files. No need to use Phocus for that.
I hope Hasselblad will not allocate any resources to give Phocus HEIC-editing features.

Thank you for sharing what works for you.

Phocus is tuned to the X2D.  That gives it a leg up on other editors.  HEIC allows more editing than JPG, is non-destructive and has greater bit depth.  It is progress.

RAW provides even greater bit depth and better non-destructive editing - including, perhaps most importantly, lens corrections for each XCD or HC lens used on the X2D.

I promise we won't say "we told you so" if you try it. Well, I won't say it. But I urge everyone to support you here. In 2005, I took my first salable photo. I messed up the camera settings that day and took it only as JPEG. It's a 16MP CCD image, so it's high quality, but I curse myself every time I try to edit or sharpen it that I have only a JPEG to work with.

Ok, I'll shut up about it. Do as you wish.

Matt

I know the advantages of RAW/DNG/3FR files.  This is not some secret technology.  I picked up my first 35mm camera in 1954, a Vito II, and have been using digital since 2000.  I shoot Leica, Sony, PIxii and Pentax in addition to HB.  This is not new to me.  However, I seem to be more comfortable with SOOC from the X2D than are others.  This is a matter of individual choice not a vote on technology.  And, yes, there is greater bit depth in RAW and so on but at the end up you will most likely be exporting the file as an 8 bit JPEG.  Unless you can print RAW.  Or you could export as 10 bit HEIC if HB ever gets their act together.  Choices, choices, choices.  ;o)

Apple has made HEIC popular.  It has advantages over JPG, like greater bit depth and undo.  If I understand HEIC editing the original file is untouched and the changes are held in a sidecar file.  This all sounds pretty good to me. And while HB Phocus cannot do this GIMP can.  GIMP can also export files in HEIC format.  Shame on HB.  Shabby, shabby, shabby.  The best path now for RAW would be to do the RAW editing in Phocus and then export the file as HEIC in GIMP.

And I wonder can the human eye detect the greater bit depth of 16 bit?  In a double blind test how many could tell the difference?  And how many printers could print the difference?  This talk of RAW vs JPG/HEIC may just be a moot point.

These three are JPG and look alright in color, definition and shading to me.  Maybe not good enough for you.  I am in a boat community.

https://flic.kr/p/2o8iwVu

https://flic.kr/p/2oh2mZJ

https://flic.kr/p/2omWiym

[boojum]

I have my interest in the tech end of this more if only to answer posed question and calm doubts.  This news from the internet says the image is 16 bit.  I wonder about that:

"How to Open HEIC Files in GIMP
Developed by the Motion Pictures Experts Group (MPEG), the High-Efficiency Image Coder (HEIC) format is Apple's native graphics container format. Introduced with iOS 11, it serves as the default format for all photos taken on iPhones and iPads. Also known as the High-Efficiency Image Format (HEIF), HEIC provides numerous benefits such as:

Half the size of a similar quality JPG
Transparency
Multiple images in a single file
16-bit color
Image edits versioning including cropping and rotations
Because it is an Apple format, only Apple devices fully support the format. Windows, Android, and Linux users must seek third-party solutions to open the files in any capacity. Luckily, a few of them are readily available such as GIMP."

But for any who are interested here is the Wikipedia link:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format

I am reading it but I am not a techy type.

[fcarucci]

I wrote HB support about Phocus not recognizing the HEIC files.  Their response was that they had forwarded my email to R&D in Gothenburg.  I'd hope that Gothenburg already knows.  ;o)

As for editing, this is very important to me.  If the HEIC has greater bit-depth, 10 vs 8 in JPG, and can be edited with undo via edits being carried in a sidecar and the original file untouched I'd say this is progress. And the info on the format says it is a better image than JPG.

And before anyone gets all huffy and puffy over JPG and HEIC, I print nothing at home.  If I do RAW it must be exported as an 8 bit JPG so where is the advantage of RAW?  The SOOC images of the X2D are excellent requiring little or no enhancement.  I am just an amateur hack not a paid commercial photographer.  And images sent off to commercial houses for printing are sent as JPG's.  I hope to see these places accept HEIC soon.  It has been around for a long while now.  So welcome to 2023, let's use the tools we have.  Cheers

There are several printing lab that accept TIFF files and document their printer/paper profiles, so you can proof print at home to a reasonable degree.
HEIC is definitely a welcome addition, but a camera like the X2D deserves a full raw workflow, if not for anything else, for those 16bit that are very useful when pushing in post.
That said, my use case is different since I print my work for sale and for galleries and it takes me days to produce one single image.

For me, Phocus is a RAW converter.
If you want to edit your photos to get the best quality (that's why you're using Hasselblad, right?), you will shoot RAW.
You can use any Photohop/Affinity/Gimp/... you like to edit JPG or HEIC files. No need to use Phocus for that.
I hope Hasselblad will not allocate any resources to give Phocus HEIC-editing features.

Exactly right. Software engineering resources are limited and I do hope are spent on much more useful features than adding heif support to a raw converter. HEIF has advantages over jpg as a finished product, not as a starting point for a proper photographic workflow.

And, yes, there is greater bit depth in RAW and so on but at the end up you will most likely be exporting the file as an 8 bit JPEG.  Unless you can print RAW.  Or you could export as 10 bit HEIC if HB ever gets their act together.  Choices, choices, choices.  ;o)

As expressed above, you can print from 16bit tiff files at several labs and I print from 16bit tiff at home. The quality improvement is substantial and gives justice to Hasselblad color science.

And I wonder can the human eye detect the greater bit depth of 16 bit?  In a double blind test how many could tell the difference?  And how many printers could print the difference?  This talk of RAW vs JPG/HEIC may just be a moot point.

This is a common misconception and the answer is emphatically yes. Subtle color gradients in the sky, for example, are rendered with evident banding with 8bit and banding is still detectable with 10bit. I'm a graphics software engineer by trade and I'm very familiar with these precision issues also in rendered images. The other issue is noise (and again banding) in the shadows as soon as you try to pull up the shadows even a little bit with 8 bit.

For a little bit more mathematical (but not nearly comprehensive enough) explanation, with 8 bit per channel, you only have 256 gradations across the whole dynamic range to work with, so, for example, if you have a sky gradient, for example, at dusk, you might be literally working with only 10/20 values to represent that blue, where likely only one channel is changing from pixel to pixel. This result in banding. With 10bit you have four times the number of values to work with in a channel, with 16bit you have 256 times the number of values (65536 in total) to work with to represent a gradient. When you analyze quantization errors representing darker values, things become more complicated, but the end result is the same: the visual difference between 8bit and 16bit is massive. Hope it makes sense.

[boojum]

^^^^^^^^^^

Hey, Carucci, thanks!  That was a very clear, comprehensive and understandable explanation.  Guys like you are why I am on this board: to learn something.  ;o)

Now I just have to find an online printing house that takes TIFF.  If I get a sweet JPG/HEIC I can go to the 3FR and tweak it for printing and export it as TIFF.  I print very, very little but now I know.  And have been warned that it takes time to get the RAW image right.  I used to record music and getting the edits done and the sound right took time, too.  Same-same.

Thank you!