3rd party longer lenses

[MGrayson]

Ibis works with this combination but I am past the age where I'd attempt to use this lens handheld.

Yes, that was more a "could it be done" than a "should it be done". To my knowledge, the only hand-holdable 300mm for the X system is the Mamiya 645 300/5.6 ULD. At 900g including adapter, it's less than 40% of the HC 300/4.5's weight. Even the Zeiss 250/5.6 SA is 30% heavier. I've never noticed CA on the ULD lens - probably due to the X sensor being cropped compared to 645.

[davidjiang]

My trials to use the X 1.7 X extender from the XCD135 with third party lenses gave poor results in terms of vignetting.

As the extender is before the adapter ring and too far from the third party tele it gives strong bad vignetting.

The Zeiss Mutar 2X gives superb results with Zeiss CF Apo teles.
The problem with the 250 Superachromat is that it only opens at f:11 what makes V camera focusing impossible on the ground glass, so you have to focus with LV.
Other problem is the limited shutter speed of 1/500s what makes handhold shooting impossible, only tripod and mirror prerelease can give sharp digital images.
Used on X cameras you have the rolling shutter problem you have to deal with.

Thanks JCM-Photos
Zeiss Mutar is indeed a great extender, I have not chance to try the one for HB V lenses, but I have one for Contax YC, it works perfect with my 35/1.4, even make better result @ wide open!!
When you say Zeiss CF App Tele, do you mean 500 f8?
250 SA is an exceptional lens, although it is single coat without T*, still the best performer for all visible spectrum.
Weight and shutter speed is always an issue, although I am not too old, still not a muscles man, when dealing with 300mm above, always rely on tripod or at least monopod. That's why I like big aperture ones.
Thanks for the advice for slight manual adjustment when using AF, I am learning to make it habitual right now.

[davidjiang]

I had an HC 300/4.5, but stupidly sold it when I got the 350/5.6 SA. With the X2D, I find that AF is seldom accurate enough and I'm always doing manual adjustments - especially at large apertures. It's not that the AF fails, it's that it often focuses on the wrong thing. Focus peaking, which works across the entire frame, shows me the band of focus and I can move it to suit.

So I would happily use a non-orange-dot HC 300 for its shutter alone. And with IBIS, it is possible to use magnified manual focus, even hand-held.

This was hand-held and without IBIS (Leica S) 1/750 sec



And on a tripod..



Great lens. Did I mention I was stupid for selling it?

Matt

Thanks Matt
Your pics prove the value of HC300!
SA lenses are all outstanding ones, not so mint ones with thousands clicks in 2nd hand market still cost lot - 250 SA ($1500), 350 SA ($6500), and 300 SA ($36000)!!!

[davidjiang]

David,

Autofocus does indeed work with the HC 300 plus the XH adapter. As Matt noted the result of such use  can almost always benefit from a slight manual adjustment. Ibis works with this combination but I am past the age where I'd attempt to use this lens handheld. I routinely shut Ibis off when using a tripod.

Autofocus does not work with the HC 300 plus the H 1.7 teleconverter plus the XH Adapter I did not attempt to try use of Ibis.

I'm willing to try a Nikon 500mm f4 with and without a 1.4 X teleconverter and my Novoflex adapter. However, the weather forecast shows that the next suitable time when conditions might be suitable is shortly after dawn on 3 April.

Bob

Thanks again Bob for the info
Really exciting to looking forward to see your test with the Nikon 500/4!

I were on Canon before move to HB, very like the 328 and 428 (I do not have them now, but used a lot back in RMIT shooting portrait and landscape). I just had the X2D less than a year, initially only 38V and 135 for most of the time, I trade most of my EF, R and YC lenses not workable on X2D for a 90V and 21 recently, still have some remaining, so are looking for a telephoto one

BTW, I found that some old lens such as 17L, R100/2.8 and R35-70 E67 perform really well on X2D, I will try to do some non-scientific test @ MFD and infinite compare with XCD lenses I have. Any result will seek your professional comments again

Thanks again and happy Easter!

[davidjiang]

Yes, that was more a "could it be done" than a "should it be done". To my knowledge, the only hand-holdable 300mm for the X system is the Mamiya 645 300/5.6 ULD. At 900g including adapter, it's less than 40% of the HC 300/4.5's weight. Even the Zeiss 250/5.6 SA is 30% heavier. I've never noticed CA on the ULD lens - probably due to the X sensor being cropped compared to 645.

Yes, Mamiya 645 is a great MF solution, light and cheap, the 300/5.6 ULD only cost $150, even the APO 300/4.5 is just $600 and 1.4kg, 2/3 of HC300.

Happy Easter, Matt!

[MGrayson]

Yes, that was more a "could it be done" than a "should it be done". To my knowledge, the only hand-holdable 300mm for the X system is the Mamiya 645 300/5.6 ULD. At 900g including adapter, it's less than 40% of the HC 300/4.5's weight. Even the Zeiss 250/5.6 SA is 30% heavier. I've never noticed CA on the ULD lens - probably due to the X sensor being cropped compared to 645.

Yes, Mamiya 645 is a great MF solution, light and cheap, the 300/5.6 ULD only cost $150, even the APO 300/4.5 is just $600 and 1.4kg, 2/3 of HC300.

Happy Easter, Matt!

Thank you!
I'd love to be able to use the APO 300/4.5, but it has no aperture ring and needs an electronic adapter. Will it work with anything other than a Mamiya or Phase One body?
M

[davidjiang]

[/quote]
Thank you!
I'd love to be able to use the APO 300/4.5, but it has no aperture ring and needs an electronic adapter. Will it work with anything other than a Mamiya or Phase One body?
M
[/quote]

Seems Kipon has one Phase/M645-GFX E adapter.
There are quite some E-adapters for GFX allow aperture control even AF, but not HB X system...

[davidjiang]

Hello David,

Patience may help in acquiring an HC 300 (orange dot) at a more reasonable price. I purchased one in mint condition with a low shutter count about a year ago for ~$3500.

Bob

Dear Bob
By your bless, I found one mint HC 300 orange dot with only 15 clicks plus unopened XH adapter and 0.8 converter @ $4600!!!

I can hand on the lens by tomorrow! so excited!

[davidjiang]

Report back here

I just make some simple & lax test for HC300 with XH Adapter and XH Converter 0.8, along with XCD 135 & X Converter 1.7, both on tripod and handheld.

AF works for all scenarios, all fast and accurate except HC300+XH+X1.7 combo will hunting or fail 30% of the time.

IBIS also works well except HC300+XH+X1.7

For Sharpness:

Wide open, XCD135+X1.7 @f4.8, HC300+XH0.8 @f3.5, HC300+XH @f4.5, HC300+XH+X1.7 @f7.1
Center: XCD135+X1.7 > HC300+XH > HC300+XH0.8 > HC300+XH+X1.7
Corner: XCD135+X1.7 > HC300+XH = HC300+XH0.8 > HC300+XH+X1.7

All @f8
Center: HC300+XH0.8 > XCD135+X1.7 = HC300+XH > HC300+XH+X1.7
Corner: HC300+XH0.8 = XCD135+X1.7 > HC300+XH > HC300+XH+X1.7

And the combo with X1.7 is bit soft and vignetting, just like Bob conclude, it did not reach HB standard. one fact need to be considered, I was so keen to do some test so just took the shots through my window which is very near to a busy road and a railway, there are many car and train pass by, when I use EVF enlarge to focus, the whole image is heavily shaking since the IBIS is off, for other 3 combos, I can turn IBIS on, and the shaking is much better. I will find a more calm place to test again.

The X1.7 is dedicated for XCD135, then how about the H1.7, does it provide better IQ than X1.7 when combo with HC300? I may find one to try, and to see whether AF can also work.

I also tried handheld, with IBIS on and safe shutter speed @ 1/2X, HC300 with XH or XH0.8 provide quiet amazing result. plus the X1.7, bit too heavy for me, but AF with high contrast target and 1/1000 to 1/2000 shutter speed provide acceptable result.

Hope next firmware upgrade can exceed the 500mm limits for IBIS.

Maybe I will also try the 250SA, 350SA or Mamiya 300 ULD, but not near future...

Thanks again for all your valued advices!!

[Bob Foster]

David,

My experience has been that the H 1.7 converter works much better with the HC 300 than the X converter does.

The odd thing about IBIS not being allowed to be used with the HC 300 lens + a 1.7 converter is that if the true focal length is 292mm as Hasselblad states in a number of brochures and if the converter is truly produces a 1.7X magnification then the focal length of the combination is 496.4mm.

Bob

[davidjiang]

I got one H1.7, tried shot @ MFD for some popmarts (on tripod, ES, AF, ISO64, Phocus Mobile 2 trigger, from wide open to f11), all 6 types of combo work fine.

AF works except HC300+H1.7+XH+X1.7. AF on HC300+XH+X1.7 is better than HC300+H1.7+XH, but still will hunting or fail.
IBIS only work with HC300+XH or HC300+XH0.8 or HC300+H1.7+XH0.8, seems must below 500mm.

Use XCD135+X1.7 as ruler, it perform great from f4.8 to f11, very constant!

all comparison is for central focus point.

HC300+XH is unexpected good, only f4.5 bit softer, f5.6 is par with XCD135+X1.7, f8 & f11 is better!! and no obvious vignetting.
HC300+XH0.8 f3.5 & f4 is quite soft, f5.6 to f11 is par with XDC135+X1.7, no obvious vignetting
HC300+H1.7+XH0.8, only f11 is almost par with XCD135+X1.7, vignetting
HC300+H1.7+XH, all softer than XCD135+X1.7, f11 is acceptable, vignetting
HC300+XH+X1.7, f7.1 is soft, f8 is acceptable, f11 is almost par with XCD135+X1.7, vignetting
HC300+H1.7+XH+X1.7, f12 is soft, f14 is acceptable. quite heavy vignetting.

Seems my H1.7 copy is not very good...., but this is MFD, let's wait the test for infinite.

Later after I found a calm place outside, I will re-test the infinite result. considering the HFD of the biggest combo is about 1.5km, not so easy in such a big & busy city...

[davidjiang]

David,

My experience has been that the H 1.7 converter works much better with the HC 300 than the X converter does.

The odd thing about IBIS not being allowed to be used with the HC 300 lens + a 1.7 converter is that if the true focal length is 292mm as Hasselblad states in a number of brochures and if the converter is truly produces a 1.7X magnification then the focal length of the combination is 496.4mm.

Bob

You are right! Bob, it's 496.4mm!! should within 500mm limits, but the exif tell is 510mm....
H1.7+XH0.8 exif say 400mm
H1.7+X1.7 exif say 850mm
...

[davidjiang]

I re-test the infinity in a more calm environment, AF focus then zoom in for slight manual adjustment, all operate from Phocus Mobile, try best not touch the camera at all.

Result is bit different with the first infinity test:

230=XCD135+X1.7
240=HC300+XH0.8
300=HC300+XH
400=HC300+H1.7+XH0.8
510H=HC300+H1.7+XH
510X=HC300+XH+X1.7
850=HC300+H1.7+XH+X1.7

Center
(f3.5 to f7.1)
230/5.6 >= 230/4.8 > 240/5.6 >= 300/5.6 >= 240/4.5 > 240/3.5 >= 300/4.5 > 510X/7.1 >= 510H/7.1 > 400/6.3

(f8)
230 >= 240 > 300 > 400 >= 510X >= 510H

(f11)
400 >= 230 = 240 = 300 > 510X >= 510H > 850/16 >> 850/14 > 850/12

Corner, due to big differences of angle of view from 230 to 850, so compare in 2 groups, 230/240/300, 400/510H/510X/850

240/240/300
(f3.5 to f4.
230/4.8 > 240/4.5 >= 300/4.5 > 240/3.5

(f5.6)
230 > 240 >= 300

(f8)
230 >= 240 = 300

(f11)
230 = 240 = 300

400/510H/510X/850
(f6.3,f7.1)
510H/7.1 > 510X/7.1 > 400/6.3

(f8)
510H >= 400 > 510X

(f11)
510H = 400 >= 510X > 850/16 >> 850/14 > 850/12

The 240 is perform well, only slightly soft than 230 @ wide open. 400 is very soft wide open but extremely good @ f11. 510X center is slightly better than 510H, but corner 510H is much better. 850 is expected, only f16 can catch up.

And AF on H1.7 is much faster & determined than X1.7

[Bob Foster]

David,

I tried the Nikon 500/4 this A.M.

Vignetting is an issue. When used on an X2D, a carefully centralized 24 X 36 image closely approaches the useful limit of this lens.

The center of the images I made matches the IQ of the Hasselblad HC 300 + HC 1.7.

You have too look hard to see a difference but in the cropped the images from the Nikkor the edges appear to be very slightly softer than the same area of a full size image made with the HC 300 + HC 1.7.

In my opinion you're better off using the HC 300 plus the HC 1.7...

Bob

[davidjiang]

David,

I tried the Nikon 500/4 this A.M.

Vignetting is an issue. When used on an X2D, a carefully centralized 24 X 36 image closely approaches the useful limit of this lens.

The center of the images I made matches the IQ of the Hasselblad HC 300 + HC 1.7.

You have too look hard to see a difference but in the cropped the images from the Nikkor the edges appear to be very slightly softer than the same area of a full size image made with the HC 300 + HC 1.7.

In my opinion you're better off using the HC 300 plus the HC 1.7...

Bob

Dear Bob

Really appreciate your time for the meticulous testing and sharing the result. I will stick to HC300+H1.7 now and get use to how to manage this combo.

Seems many FF telephoto lens can't cover the full 4433. I also found some similar articles taking about Canon 500/4 and 400/2.8, both has obvious vignetting
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4748855
https://youtu.be/mL3XoLtiOA8
and the IQ also not supprise me.

I also found one document try to record all tested lens for medium format, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uxvvpxJ9QVFFyh0pW2rs9KBmUW9vlh-d-VnbcLDCTn8/edit#gid=0
Maybe not so accurate, but at least for reference.

Thanks again Bob for your great help! real test from an experienced profession always most valued.