Upgrading from H3D-22

[FotografAndreas]

Hi all!

I am currently thinking about upgrading from my H3D-22 to H4D-40 or 50.

What is the difference between these cameras regarding image quality (besides resolution)?

My current lenses are the 35, 80, 100 and 120.

I mostly shoot food and fashion in my studio and the occasional architectural work.

[Greg]

It is interesting that I also have the H3D22 with the 35, 80, 100, and 150.  One major difference between the two, according to another forum member, is that the 60 gives far less moire than the 22.  For me, a lot of fabric gives me moire with the 22, and I am not very good at getting rid of it with Phocus.  The resolution of the 22 is still pretty amazing and is good for most enlargements that anyone would need.  Making prints on my Epson 7880 gives me perfectly acceptable prints 24X36. 

The other differences are outlined in the specifications located on the Hasselblad website.  With the introduction of the new Phase One 80 mega pixel offering there is no telling where the mega pixel race will take finally take us.  In the watch business I'm told that anything above 17 jewels (as far as operating efficiency) is simply for show.  I kind of feel the same way about mega pixels above 22 even though I also own an H4D60.

Greg   

[FotografAndreas]

Thanks for your quick reply!

I also have problems with moire, and I often use the dual layers solution in PS.

And my 35 lens doesn´t really seem to work very well with the sensor of the H3D-22.

Greg: besides the obvious leap in resolution, what would you say were the biggest differences in image quality?

Dynamic range and color, etc?

What urged you to get the H4D-60? Was it your clients that demanded the extra megapixels?

[Dustbak]

I do lots of fabric and had lots of troubles with moire with the 39. I would export layered PSD with max moire reduction and paint in the moire reduction in PS. This was often not enough (I would love to have Phocus go to 10 with moire reduction instead of only 5) and I often needed to do more in PS.

With the 60 virtually all of my moire has gone (I tested an 80MP back where moire was non-existent for all practical purposes). I have to spend less time fighting moire saving me hours on some shoots.

I love the color rendition of the 60 as well.

BTW, the 35 I find a pretty weak lens. I have not used it for years now. I prefer the 35-90 which is an excellent lens that even holds its own compared to the Mamiya LS lenses in the same range. Even on the 60 where it is cropped to a bit over 50MP when you turn on the cropping mode.

I think all 3 (40,50,60) have things that set them apart. Depending on what you want to use it for you make your choice. I never get asked for megapixels by clients, actually most of the time I am downsizing my images. The extra real estate gives me the freedom to, crop to desire, have the ability to choose almost any perspective and still have enough to use it, etc. Simply said it gives me the freedom to work a bit more relaxed and save time (or maybe say, work a bit more sloppy and faster ). Fairly rarely I need all the resolution I can get.

[Greg]

Dustbak is the expert, and I agree with everything he said.  I do not have much to add to his thoughtful response.

Greg

[FotografAndreas]

OK!

Thanks to you both!

So in short: If I can live with the poor screen, the moiré and the lack of True Focus, I might as well hold on to my H3D-22 a bit longer?

The reason I started this thread was that my Hasselblad dealer gave me reasonable offer for trading my camera for a H4D-50.
But it is a lot of money, never the less. I will book a demo for the H4D-50 and try it out anyway, just to see for myself if the quality of the files and the improved handling justifies the price gap.

[KeithL]

If my main client was Harris Tweed I'd upgrade, but they're not. If and when I upgrade it will be for the resolution rather than any incremental benefits in IQ.

[mharvey65]

So in short: If I can live with the poor screen, the moiré and the lack of True Focus, I might as well hold on to my H3D-22 a bit longer?

All this talk about Moire and the size of the cameras is mad. The bigger backs (H4D 31/40/50/60) aren't any better at Moire, it's just that the 'frequency' of the detail in the fabric that you are photographing and the pixel pitch (resolution) of the back are mismatched and therefore creating the Moire. It just happens that the scale of life (fabrics in particular) are a poor match to the 22Mpixel backs - AT CERTAIN SUBJECT TO CAMERA DISTANCES.

In most cases, Moire can be solved by moving closer or further from your subject. Or tilting the camera a little. Try it - It works. Other than that, we used to use Photoshop to deal with Moire - There is a fantastic demo on the internet that shows how to deal with both Luminance and Chromatic Moire. That's how we used to do it in the old days. It's not complicated and it's fast!

You're only ever going to free yourself from Moire if you go Multi Shot. That's the comparison you really want to see. Your old 22 against the 50ms! Wow. You'll find the money like a bad drug habit. I know - I bought it too!

Fact is the older 22 is long in the tooth and is probably due for a serious service (expensive!), so trade it in while the kind people at Hasselblad will let you (I believe the trade in scheme for 22 Mpixel backs is finishing soon?). There's just something about giving back that piece of kit that has worked hard for you and getting a whole new camera - (let's not mention the money that changed hands as well - Denial... I love it)... Then get out there and take some pictures. After all that's what it's all about!

MichaelH

[Dustbak]

All this talk about Moire and the size of the cameras is mad. The bigger backs (H4D 31/40/50/60) aren't any better at Moire, it's just that the 'frequency' of the detail in the fabric that you are photographing and the pixel pitch (resolution) of the back are mismatched and therefore creating the Moire. It just happens that the scale of life (fabrics in particular) are a poor match to the 22Mpixel backs - AT CERTAIN SUBJECT TO CAMERA DISTANCES.

Euh.. if that typical distance is the perspective that you need you are screwed. The backs with a higher pixel pitch might give you no or less moire in that case. In practicality they are better with regard to moire. Sure you can get moire with the 60 (or 80MP) backs as well (frankly we were not able to generate moire with an 80MP back). I just happened to see it way less with my 60 than with my 39. Now, if you want to tell me I am mad and that there simply is just as much moire, fine. I don't see it and I certainly do not need to get rid of it in post.

In most cases, Moire can be solved by moving closer or further from your subject. Or tilting the camera a little. Try it - It works. Other than that, we used to use Photoshop to deal with Moire - There is a fantastic demo on the internet that shows how to deal with both Luminance and Chromatic Moire. That's how we used to do it in the old days. It's not complicated and it's fast!

Sure, this works. Not always but in cases it does. Unfortunately sometimes you either cannot move or you create moire in other areas. Naturally you can also close aperture until diffraction kicks in or make fuzzy images by misfocussing, both options are not optimal. Naturally you can fight moire in PS, it still is work and takes time.

You're only ever going to free yourself from Moire if you go Multi Shot. That's the comparison you really want to see. Your old 22 against the 50ms! Wow. You'll find the money like a bad drug habit. I know - I bought it too!

Right! Which is why I have a 39MS as well. A comparison we did several weeks ago with a 50MS versus an AptusII 12 was a good indication where we need to go to get to the point the benefit or need of multishot is severely reduced.

Fact is the older 22 is long in the tooth and is probably due for a serious service (expensive!), so trade it in while the kind people at Hasselblad will let you (I believe the trade in scheme for 22 Mpixel backs is finishing soon?). There's just something about giving back that piece of kit that has worked hard for you and getting a whole new camera - (let's not mention the money that changed hands as well - Denial... I love it)... Then get out there and take some pictures. After all that's what it's all about!

None of this is a fact. Actually you can even trade in 16MP backs at this moment. I totally agree with you that trading-up is a nice thing to do. It gives you a good feeling to get a new carmera while handing over your old workhorse. At least it does so for me. There is no need trying to instill fear by mentioning imminent break-down or inability to trade-up to get the OP to upgrade his H3D22.

[Greg]

Well said Ray.  He almost had me convinced.  Maybe I'm just a little unsure of myself enough to be swayed by his particular logic.  Even though I thought the same things you enumerated, I just did not have the confidence in my convictions.  And to be quite honest, I am very happy with the images produced by my H3D22.

Thanks,

Greg

[mharvey65]

None of this is a fact. Actually you can even trade in 16MP backs at this moment. I totally agree with you that trading-up is a nice thing to do. It gives you a good feeling to get a new carmera while handing over your old workhorse. At least it does so for me. There is no need trying to instill fear by mentioning imminent break-down or inability to trade-up to get the OP to upgrade his H3D22.

Think you need to check your sources here... I am told by Hasselblad UK that: "Please note that the Trade-In route will end by or before July 2011."

One more thing. Hasselblad are very aware of the 'safe' number of actuations for the H-series body - information they use when assessing the life of a 'rental' camera. OK. Same goes for Canon and Nikon, but there is a time at which the camera bodies all need a complete overhaul - shutter, mirror assembly etc.

I agree that most users might not get to these numbers, but it is worth bearing in mind none the less. This is why whenever anyone is selling gear on this list, everyone want to know the shutter actuations etc.

Hope that puts the record straight.

MichaelH

[mharvey65]

enumerated

??

a quick google search presented:

"In mathematics and theoretical computer science, the broadest and most abstract definition of an enumeration of a set is an exact listing of all of its elements (perhaps with repetition). The restrictions imposed on the type of list used depend on the branch of mathematics and the context in which one is working. In more specific settings, this notion of enumeration encompasses the two different types of listing: one where there is a natural ordering and one where the ordering is more nebulous. These two different kinds of enumerations correspond to a procedure for listing all members of the set in some definite sequence, or a count of objects of a specified kind, respectively. While the two kinds of enumeration often overlap in most natural situations, they can assume very different meanings in certain contexts."

I'm still no wiser.

MichaelH

[Greg]

Michael,

Just for the record, I did not discount your argument.  In fact it gave me pause for concern, but Ray's reply to your post gave me comfort in the fact that each of his arguments came to my mind as I read your post.  The theoretical limit for my H3D22 is far beyond any number I will ever attain so that is really no worry for me.  However, the price of replacement parts does give me some concern.  But my hope is that Hasselblad has a record of spare parts needed over time for their other systems, and they have applied to the H3D22.  If not, too bad, I still have my H4D60.  But if experience is worth anything, Hasselblad's record so far for me in the area of service has been exemplary.  I did appreciate your post, but I am reminded that for every argument there is a counter point, and I need to learn to trust my instincts and common sense.  Those are areas that I am sometimes reluctant to trust, because I am surrounded in this forum by professionals who have tremendous amounts of experience.

Greg       

[erick]

have you read the review of Dig Lloyd about the H4D  50  and poor quality of some optical H because of so  many pixels ?

http://diglloyd.com/index-dap.html  --> Hasselblad H4D 50 Megapixel Medium Format DSLR / How does Hasselblad's 3rd generation medium format entry measure up ?

[KeithL]

I doubt many here are subscribers. Perhaps you could sum up his findings for us?