Phocus Mobile 2 v3.0.0

[tenmangu81]

Apparently Phocus Desktop automatically applies noise reduction upon import, regardless of settings and so HNNR filess get a double dose of noise reduction. But I have made them aware of the problem and the fix would seem to be that they adjust  the Desktop so that it does not apply additional noise reduction to HNNR files. And while they are at it might be nice to give that as an option all the time. As far as I know I don't think there is a way to do that now is there? Here's the reply I got from Hasselblad:

"Hi Mario,

Thank you for contacting Hasselblad Support!

This is likely being caused by the automatic noise reduction which Phocus desktop applies to imported images. Therefore, it probably looks like you are applying double the level of noise reduction, which would give it that waxy look you have been describing. This is also why this does not happen when importing to Lightroom as well."

My way of importing images into Phocus Desktop is setting noise and sharpening to zero (I created a preset). I prefer to reduce noise the way I like it rather than letting Phocus doing it. But the question is : does Phocus apply noise reduction even when the NR cursor is at zero ?

[MGrayson]

Apparently Phocus Desktop automatically applies noise reduction upon import, regardless of settings and so HNNR filess get a double dose of noise reduction. But I have made them aware of the problem and the fix would seem to be that they adjust  the Desktop so that it does not apply additional noise reduction to HNNR files. And while they are at it might be nice to give that as an option all the time. As far as I know I don't think there is a way to do that now is there? Here's the reply I got from Hasselblad:

"Hi Mario,

Thank you for contacting Hasselblad Support!

This is likely being caused by the automatic noise reduction which Phocus desktop applies to imported images. Therefore, it probably looks like you are applying double the level of noise reduction, which would give it that waxy look you have been describing. This is also why this does not happen when importing to Lightroom as well."

My way of importing images into Phocus Desktop is setting noise and sharpening to zero (I created a preset). I prefer to reduce noise the way I like it rather than letting Phocus doing it. But the question is : does Phocus apply noise reduction even when the NR cursor is at zero ?

"Apply to what" is the question. If I import a 3FR and export it as an FFF and import them both into LR, they are identical. But an exported TIFF will have NR applied compared to the 3FR when both are brought into LR. I *think* turning off all processing makes them extremely close (I did the experiment, but don't keep good notes).

The question gets philosophical if you go deeper. The RAW has some noise. But there are many demosaicing algorithms. If one has less noise than  another do we say that the one has applied noise reduction? I think that, until HNNR, no changes were made to the RAW Hassy files - only changes made to the rendering instructions. But there are already three different engines available in Phocus. Like a photograph, the question dissolves under a microscope.

[vidio]

It is very clear from the response I got from Hasselblad that Phocus Desktop does indeed apply noise reduction upon import. This happens even if the settings are set to 0. As of now there is no way to prevent it. That is normally not a problem.

However it becomes a problem when you apply HNNR in the mobile app and then bring that HNNR file into Phocus Desktop. Because then another layer of noise reduction is added. This clearly produces a waxy look as you can see from my previous examples. Putting the noise settings to 0 has no effect. When I put it to -10 it helped a little but it is still not comparable to the original look in the mobile app.

[SrMi]

It is very clear from the response I got from Hasselblad that Phocus Desktop does indeed apply noise reduction upon import. This happens even if the settings are set to 0. As of now there is no way to prevent it. That is normally not a problem.

However it becomes a problem when you apply HNNR in the mobile app and then bring that HNNR file into Phocus Desktop. Because then another layer of noise reduction is added. This clearly produces a waxy look as you can see from my previous examples. Putting the noise settings to 0 has no effect. When I put it to -10 it helped a little but it is still not comparable to the original look in the mobile app.

When you import the original raw (no HNNR), have you observed that Phocus applied NR with noise sliders at 0? Or does the hidden NR happens only on HNNR?

[Iskander]

Please note if you are already using the HNNR function.

I had noticed with some RAW files that the radius of the sharpening setting had changed in the new file after using HNNR.
During my tests, it turned out that all radius settings < 1.0 were ignored and set to 1.0 by default. Settings >= 1.0 seem to be applied correctly.

After contacting Hasselblad support today, they responded very quickly after an email exchange. They were able to identify the problem and forwarded it to the development team.

I can only thank the Hasselblad support team for their quick response.

Today I received an answer from the support team that I wasn't expecting.

,,Thank you for your patience. We have received a response from our R&D team regarding your inquiry:

The default sharpening parameters after the HNNR process are designed to be adjusted as part of the intended design. If you wish to use the previous parameters, you can simply copy the parameters from the image before noise reduction and apply them to the image after noise reduction. This will ensure that the parameters remain consistent between the two images."

It is therefore an intentional feature and not a bug

[Hendrix_CI]

It is very clear from the response I got from Hasselblad that Phocus Desktop does indeed apply noise reduction upon import. This happens even if the settings are set to 0. As of now there is no way to prevent it. That is normally not a problem.

However it becomes a problem when you apply HNNR in the mobile app and then bring that HNNR file into Phocus Desktop. Because then another layer of noise reduction is added. This clearly produces a waxy look as you can see from my previous examples. Putting the noise settings to 0 has no effect. When I put it to -10 it helped a little but it is still not comparable to the original look in the mobile app.

When you import the original raw (no HNNR), have you observed that Phocus applied NR with noise sliders at 0? Or does the hidden NR happens only on HNNR?

I've seen no change in the default noise sliders in either Phocus Mobile nor in Phocus Desktop with neither HNNr nor non-HNNR raw fils. However, as per Iskander, I did see that Phocus Mobile pushed Sharpening level from 100 to 150.


Steve Hendrix/CI
steve@captureintegration.com

[niviblad]

It is very clear from the response I got from Hasselblad that Phocus Desktop does indeed apply noise reduction upon import. This happens even if the settings are set to 0. As of now there is no way to prevent it. That is normally not a problem.

However it becomes a problem when you apply HNNR in the mobile app and then bring that HNNR file into Phocus Desktop. Because then another layer of noise reduction is added. This clearly produces a waxy look as you can see from my previous examples. Putting the noise settings to 0 has no effect. When I put it to -10 it helped a little but it is still not comparable to the original look in the mobile app.

When you import the original raw (no HNNR), have you observed that Phocus applied NR with noise sliders at 0? Or does the hidden NR happens only on HNNR?

Sliders at 0 is already an application of noise reduction if I make no mistake. No noise reduction is slider at -10 or noise reduction unchecked. You can even see that in Phocus mobile 2, but I don't know if that is still the case with HNNR. But if you put the slider of noise reduction to the left, below 0, you will see noise reappear.

[Hendrix_CI]

It is very clear from the response I got from Hasselblad that Phocus Desktop does indeed apply noise reduction upon import. This happens even if the settings are set to 0. As of now there is no way to prevent it. That is normally not a problem.

However it becomes a problem when you apply HNNR in the mobile app and then bring that HNNR file into Phocus Desktop. Because then another layer of noise reduction is added. This clearly produces a waxy look as you can see from my previous examples. Putting the noise settings to 0 has no effect. When I put it to -10 it helped a little but it is still not comparable to the original look in the mobile app.

When you import the original raw (no HNNR), have you observed that Phocus applied NR with noise sliders at 0? Or does the hidden NR happens only on HNNR?

Sliders at 0 is already an application of noise reduction if I make no mistake. No noise reduction is slider at -10 or noise reduction unchecked. You can even see that in Phocus mobile 2, but I don't know if that is still the case with HNNR. But if you put the slider of noise reduction to the left, below 0, you will see noise reappear.

Slider all the way to the left in either Phocus Desktop or Phocus Mobile results in a value of -10.

I'm not sure what a negative value in noise reduction might represent. I find it odd. Typically I slide noise reduction sliders (in any editor I use) all the way to the left, I want to start out with no noise reduction whatsoever. I have to presume 0 would be absolutely no noise reduction applied (this is what I see in Capture One). With Phocus being at -10 with the slider all the way to the left, am I to assume that 0 would represent no noise reduction from the app, but maybe -10 means undoing any noise reduction that took place in the demosaicing process or ... ?


Steve Hendrix/CI
steve@captureintegration.com

[MGrayson]

It is very clear from the response I got from Hasselblad that Phocus Desktop does indeed apply noise reduction upon import. This happens even if the settings are set to 0. As of now there is no way to prevent it. That is normally not a problem.

However it becomes a problem when you apply HNNR in the mobile app and then bring that HNNR file into Phocus Desktop. Because then another layer of noise reduction is added. This clearly produces a waxy look as you can see from my previous examples. Putting the noise settings to 0 has no effect. When I put it to -10 it helped a little but it is still not comparable to the original look in the mobile app.

When you import the original raw (no HNNR), have you observed that Phocus applied NR with noise sliders at 0? Or does the hidden NR happens only on HNNR?

Sliders at 0 is already an application of noise reduction if I make no mistake. No noise reduction is slider at -10 or noise reduction unchecked. You can even see that in Phocus mobile 2, but I don't know if that is still the case with HNNR. But if you put the slider of noise reduction to the left, below 0, you will see noise reappear.

Slider all the way to the left in either Phocus Desktop or Phocus Mobile results in a value of -10.

I'm not sure what a negative value in noise reduction might represent. I find it odd. Typically I slide noise reduction sliders (in any editor I use) all the way to the left, I want to start out with no noise reduction whatsoever. I have to presume 0 would be absolutely no noise reduction applied (this is what I see in Capture One). With Phocus being at -10 with the slider all the way to the left, am I to assume that 0 would represent no noise reduction from the app, but maybe -10 means undoing any noise reduction that took place in the demosaicing process or ... ?


Steve Hendrix/CI
steve@captureintegration.com

The answer appears to be ... -10 is more NR than none. (I wanted to type -10 > 0, but I couldn't bring myself to).

This is imported into Phocus, NR = 0, everything else turned off, exported 16 bit TIFF


The same, but with NR set to -10


And here is the FFF, imported into LR and exported with no NR (or anything else)


Interestingly, if you flip the NR panel in Phocus on and off, you'll see a brief passage through the LR "really no NR" state before it settles back on what Phocus considers "no NR".

Matt

[MSuser]

If I want to disable the application of any tool in Phocus, I uncheck the checkbox in the upper right corner of the tool to deactivate it rather than adjust sliders or settings. I use the checkbox to activate and deactivate a tool when comparing before and after results from the application of a tool to an image with some regularity.

The Phocus User Manual under the Noise Filter heading says: "Reduces noise in the image. Basic noise reduction is in place for all images, but certain textures under certain lighting conditions can produce extra noise." What effect unchecking the application of the Noise Filter tool has on "basic noise reduction" would be a question for Hasselblad support or you can test the effect of checking and unchecking with various settings for yourself.

[vidio]

If I want to disable the application of any tool in Phocus, I uncheck the checkbox in the upper right corner of the tool to deactivate it rather than adjust sliders or settings. I use the checkbox to activate and deactivate a tool when comparing before and after results from the application of a tool to an image with some regularity.

The Phocus User Manual under the Noise Filter heading says: "Reduces noise in the image. Basic noise reduction is in place for all images, but certain textures under certain lighting conditions can produce extra noise." What effect unchecking the application of the Noise Filter tool has on "basic noise reduction" would be a question for Hasselblad support or you can test the effect of checking and unchecking with various settings for yourself.

I have posed this very question to Hasselblad and they have confirmed that unchecking the noise filter tool or even setting to -10 does NOT disable "basic noise reduction." This is clearly shown in Matt's examples. And this is the current problem with HNNR files. They already have noise reduction applied and then when importing into desktop there is no way to turn off "basic noise reduction." so a little more is added. Sometimes it doesn't seem to matter but sometimes it produces too much smoothing and waxiness.

[MSuser]

If I want to disable the application of any tool in Phocus, I uncheck the checkbox in the upper right corner of the tool to deactivate it rather than adjust sliders or settings. I use the checkbox to activate and deactivate a tool when comparing before and after results from the application of a tool to an image with some regularity.

The Phocus User Manual under the Noise Filter heading says: "Reduces noise in the image. Basic noise reduction is in place for all images, but certain textures under certain lighting conditions can produce extra noise." What effect unchecking the application of the Noise Filter tool has on "basic noise reduction" would be a question for Hasselblad support or you can test the effect of checking and unchecking with various settings for yourself.

I have posed this very question to Hasselblad and they have confirmed that unchecking the noise filter tool or even setting to -10 does NOT disable "basic noise reduction." This is clearly shown in Matt's examples. And this is the current problem with HNNR files. They already have noise reduction applied and then when importing into desktop there is no way to turn off "basic noise reduction." so a little more is added. Sometimes it doesn't seem to matter but sometimes it produces too much smoothing and waxiness.

SrMi appears not to have this issue as reported here: https://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php?msg=56399

If you do, I would continue working with Hasselblad support to find out why it is the case for some users and not others in order to find a solution.

[MSuser]

I really hope Hasselblad makes HNNR available on Phocus Desktop.

I think that's likely planned, but can't be certain. If more people contact Hasselblad support with this request the more likely it becomes it will happen sooner rather than later.

[niviblad]

In fact, I've already showed this, at least for Phocus mobile 2, here : Noise reduction

I'm pretty sure I did try this in the desktop app for PC at the same time, but will have to do it again to be 100% certain.

I think HNNR overrides old noise reduction parameters, if I have to find an explanation for Matt's results, but maybe not in the PC app (Matt is on Mac if I remember correctly).

[niviblad]

I just tried on PC desktop app, trust me, it produces exactly the same result. Noise reduction -> luminance -10 -> noise reappear.

Obviously, no HNNR at any point because I don't have the X2D.