Leica S + Hasselblad X1D

[braver]

I've started with the X1D last year but was missing an OVF in MFT and so now got the S 007.  I can't be happier with the two.  This thread is for shared experiences, and I'm also starting one at l-camera-forum.com: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/301868-leica-s-hasselblad-x1d/.

Some observations so far in random order:

-- after XCD 80mm all lenses seem OK and not heavy, both S and XCD:)

-- X1D is easier to grab but S is just fine.  Hold it like Medvedev!

-- @Vieri  is a great resource for both systems, with thorough reviews.  General lack of MFT reviews compared to FF

-- S lenses are faster and the system performs OK in low light, despite the mirror shake.  I stuck to 2.5 lenses so far.

-- AF is comparably slower than FF DSLRs but OK.  S AF is faster.

-- S startup is much faster, battery life much longer.

-- Lenses span complementary ranges, I prefer some XCD and like some S ones.  Eg XCD 21mm is certainly the king of superwide while S 70mm beats XCD 65mm with 2.5 to 2.8 and speed as a walkaround one.  The S 35mm is nicely different from CD 30mm.

-- It's easier to carry two X1D bodies, e.g. X1D and X1D II with mounted lenses fit in a large Billingham case.  The idea to own or carry 2 S bodies does not feel right.

Both systems produce the dreamy MFT look.  Life is good!

[flash]

I also have both, although I don't really use my S system much any more.

- You can share Hasselblad HC lenses on both cameras with the right adaptors. Both support full functionality.

- The X1D focusing is more reliable as well as more flexible.

- Make sure you only buy S lenses that have had the motor upgrade.

- Apart from resolution the files are just as push-able with the S. Both these *old* sensors are spectacular.

- If you like the XCD80mm you'll love the S100mm. The HC100mm isn't as *perfect* buy draws beautifully as well.

- The S has a very limited longest exposure time and mandatory LENR. The X1D has the best long exposure implementation of any camera on the market.

- The programmable buttons on the S are class leading in usability.

Gordon

p.s. I don't actually like the grip on the S. it's too shallow for me and I get sore hands after a while. The X1D I can carry indefinitely.

[braver]

Last weekend, I've done an extended field test of S007 vs X1DMkII.  Or rather, I used both.  The S has 35mm and 70mm, and the X1D got the 30mm and the 65mm.  I used both, hanging on my neck together, with all lens combinations.  For head to head comparison I used 70mm+65mm or 35mm+30mm, and for complementary shots used 70mm+30mm or 35mm+65mm.  I have tons of photos from Tahoe -- with bright sun reflections in the water, where we swam with kids on Friday, and snow that fell overnight and we played snowball fights on Sunday!  (Still swam after that as the water is warm.). It takes me forever to sort and properly compare some of these so eventually they might show up here...  So far some observations.

-- It's ridiculous how small the X1D feels after S.  The recipe to enjoy your gear as small and light is to get a bigger system.

-- The S is much faster.  Any shot that requires people is better done with the S70mm than XCD 65mm.  The main problem of X1D is constant AF hunting.  Even if you shoot at infinity it needs to make sure.  The S seems much more economical and trusts the next shot be where you left off.  Often AF doesn't engage and I wonder if it's OK.  It is.  Basically the 70mm+30mm was much better -- closeups of kids doing the treetop courses were timely, and broad landscapes shot with 30mm were not urgent to catch as they say there forever.

-- The OVF shows just how pitiful the EVFs are.  One feels consternation why Hasselblad couldn't make the world's best EVF in MkII.  Surely we deserve 5 megapixels or higher.  But even then it's futile.  The image is just not the same.  You miss reality all the time except when you come home and see it on the big screen. 

-- X1D can be held indefinitely and the S is just a bit awkward to hold, you need to support it from below and/or the lens.  It's imperative with the zoom.

-- The X1D goes through batteries like Taylor Swift through hits.  I use 6 just to be sure, 2-3 a day is easy.  The S lasts a day of my shooting on one battery (600-800 shoots).  I got the second and always charge it.  I generally shoot a lot and have 5-6 batteries for each of the M60/M246, M10, Q2 systems I use for full-frame.  The S can go far on 3-4 -- I always account for forgetting/not being able to charge on a trip.

-- The X1D files are gorgeous and are not worse than the Leica.  It remains to be seen if Leica has an advantage in IQ.

-- The S lenses are faster both in AF terms and optically.  The 70 is 2.5 vs 65's 2.8 and the 35 is 2.5, a whole stop faster than 30's 3.5.  It makes a difference.  I'm hesitant to get the S45mm as it's 2.8 and I'd rather keep everything fast, eyeing the S100/2.  The only slow lens in S I have is the zoom, which turns out OK overall for landscapes and daylight kids.  I don't want the S24/3.5 for that reason.

-- A cheap 16GB SD card yields as many S photos as a 3-5x more expensive 32GB card for X1D. 

-- Leica is just more reliable in the field.  X1D is great for landscape.  People are harder. 

-- Using both is actually a great option.  XCD 30mm is the fastest AF lens for X1D and serves well as the wide angle context for S70mm primary people focus.

[MGrayson]

IMHO, the S24 and S125 are the two incomparable lenses in the S system (although the S70 renders quite beautifully). If not for them, I would feel much better about leaving the S. As it is, I just can't. I don't use it much, but nothing makes me smile like the output of those two lenses. (I have everything but the S30).

Matt

[braver]

IMHO, the S24 and S125 are the two incomparable lenses in the S system (although the S70 renders quite beautifully). If not for them, I would feel much better about leaving the S. As it is, I just can't. I don't use it much, but nothing makes me smile like the output of those two lenses. (I have everything but the S30).

Matt

Matt, do you mean S120?  How does it compare to the S100?

[Vieri]

First of all, thank you for the shoutout, I am glad you are enjoying my reviews

About the S vs X1D, I think they are both great cameras but made to do a different job. For landscape photography, IMHO there simply is no comparison - the X1D wins hands down.

S007:
- No long exposures after 1 minute (ridiculous in this day and age!) - a deal breaker right there;
- No wider lenses than 24mm - also a deal breaker for me;
- Wide angle needs special filter holder, cannot use 100mm square filters natively - almost a deal breaker, you can sort of get around that;
- Bigger and heavier system, which is a minus for long hikes - almost a deal breaker for me today, at 49 and well fit, but a possible deal breaker in a few years ;
- OVF is great for everything else, but EVF wins hands down for landscape photography (personal perhaps, but for me there is no going back to OVF for my work);
- Much worse implementation for moving AF points, which is a must when you have your camera on a tripod - almost a deal breaker;

X1D:
- Shorter battery life - not an issue for landscape (a battery normally lasts me two days);
- Slower AF - not an issue for landscape photography;

Image quality, IMHO, is better on the X1D for landscape photography, where I don't need the defocus ability of the S lenses and even though the XCD lenses are no slouch in this department either.

Just my .02, of course. Best regards,

Vieri

[braver]

@Vieri -- I think our landscape approaches are different.  Yours is professional, seems tripod-based, leveraging low light (for long exposure) and mine here is casual, walking in the woods or along the shores, often following the kids. I like to capture sunset and then go home.  The S is OK right until then and then some!:)  I absolutely love the OVF and not having it is only OK for very compactness of Leica Q2 or medium format and also compactness of X1D.  The EVF on X1D seems better than OVF to me only in low light and then only because you can see things, otherwise it's pixellated and no comparison to reality where you have high dynamic range.  The S proves itself a very capable system for certain trips, where you have a car to bring things along.  I've been able to carry a big Billingham case with four lenses and indeed a MindShift Pro backpack is required to carry all six comfortably (three in the top-loaded half, three in the rotating bottom, and one on the camera).  Yet, there're certainly interesting differences both in images and in handling that makes both systems viable in various settings!

Here's the gallery where I compare S007 vs X1Dii, handheld, all auto, with S70mm vs XCS 65mm and S35mm vs XCD 30mm:

https://adobe.ly/312vNUk

Each image is roughly similar in a pair, and captions confirm pairing: ca1s and ca1h for Leica S and Hasselblad, respectively.

The pairs are next to each other.  The original Lr Classic collection has them stacked but alas the CC version does not support stacking yet.

I plan more explorations like this, and the 75 pairs are just a fraction of what I've shot in that expedition alone.

[Vieri]

@Vieri -- I think our landscape approaches are different.  Yours is professional, seems tripod-based, leveraging low light (for long exposure) and mine here is casual, walking in the woods or along the shores, often following the kids. I like to capture sunset and then go home.  The S is OK right until then and then some!:)  I absolutely love the OVF and not having it is only OK for very compactness of Leica Q2 or medium format and also compactness of X1D.  The EVF on X1D seems better than OVF to me only in low light and then only because you can see things, otherwise it's pixellated and no comparison to reality where you have high dynamic range.  The S proves itself a very capable system for certain trips, where you have a car to bring things along.  I've been able to carry a big Billingham case with four lenses and indeed a backpack would be required to carry more.  Yet, there're certainly interesting differences both in images and in handling that makes both systems viable in various setting!

Here's the gallery where I compare S007 vs X1Dii, handheld, all auto, with S70mm vs XCS 65mm and S35mm vs XCD 30mm:

https://adobe.ly/312vNUk

Each image is roughly similar in a pair, and captions confirm pairing: ca1s and ca1h for Leica S and Hasselblad, respectively.

The pairs are next to each other.  The original Lr Classic collection has them stacked but alas the CC version does not support stacking yet.

I plan more explorations like this, and the 75 pairs are just a fraction of what I've shot in that expedition alone.

Indeed, it goes without saying that different requirements may definitely result in different equipment choices, and what works for someone doesn't necessarily works for everyone else

Best regards,

Vieri

[braver]

@Vieri I certainly see your point about the weight and also the XCD 21mm is wider than S24mm.  Both systems have their best uses, an ideal setup is where you can have each with a couple lenses so the character of a scene can be expressed with either.  But it's a luxury most of the time and each could be taken for different adventures.

[JCM-Photos]

When using strong ND filters in landscapes, OVF becomes a no go, once you tried mirroless.

In manual focusing mode, the automatic focusing loupe of the X1D has not equivalent with OVF. (but X1D focus peaking is just never accurate enough for me)

[braver]

Here's the main differentiator: readiness.  The OVF is always open for business.  You raise the Leica, waking it up, while composing the shot.  In those few seconds it's ready and you shoot.  AF locks fast, although you might correct it.  You are carrying a gun.

You raise the Hasselblad, and it takes a few seconds to wake up.  4 for MkII, 8-10 for the original X1D.  You don't see anything until the EVF and LCD come to life after that.  You cannot compose.  Now, you can, but AF hunts a bit.  It feels very iffy.  You are carrying a vase.

[JCM-Photos]

You make a confusion between waking up the X1D that has really no noticeable lag and making a cold start tat takes about 10s on my X1D.

I never make cold starts during a shooting. When the X1D is configured to no automatic shut down, you simple make a short push on the on/button and it goes to sleep, with no battery drain, it wakes up wit#hout lag when pressing again the on/off button or other buttons.

When shooting several hours, I put the X1D in sleep mode after each subject or pose, and wake it up for the next one, with no lg and no battery drain.

Changing lenses don't need a shutdown, I always make hot swaps without problem.

[JCM-Photos]

X1D AF makes always a focus check when activating it, even when the focus was perfect before AF activation. This check consist in a back and forth focus mouvement.

It's not hunting it's a check that take longer with some lenses (80mm 1,9) or less (135mm) depending on the lens construction.

If you are in stable distance conditions between frames , you can eliminate the focus check by switching the focus to MF mode and focusing by back-button AF (remains active in MF mode) before the first frame.

[braver]

@JCM-Photos, I understand the cold start vs sleep difference, and what I'm describing is the wake-up delay.   You cannot immediately see anything until you wake it up which still takes a second or so.  With the S, you do it while touching the button while composing through the OVF.  If the delay is accompanied with a focus check, it takes even longer, adding to the impression of uncertainty.  Coupled with the fact that AF will not always lock in right away, and more often fail to lock at first, you get a dreadful feeling of misfiring likely to occur and miss the shot.  With the S, I sense it in my fingers I'll make it before my kids run away, a bird flies, etc.

IMHO, this is why Leica M, S, and Fuji X-Pro series will always be better for those photographers who prefer immediate unmediated view at all times.

[braver]

When using strong ND filters in landscapes, OVF becomes a no go, once you tried mirroless.

In manual focusing mode, the automatic focusing loupe of the X1D has not equivalent with OVF. (but X1D focus peaking is just never accurate enough for me)

Interesting!  Leica S has excellent focus peaking and you might do that if you like.  And I guess LiveView is great for ND then.  Are these two things why EVF might be better for landscapes?  Anything else?  @Vieri?

As it stands now, I got a major turnoff for the flickering X1D EVF which makes a creative mind clouded, and the mind is the main tool of photography, including landscapes. . I enjoy the S immensely but probably will be back with the X1Ds soon...  Using the LCD of the MkII mostly...